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Poll Question : Should the tweak be added this preseason or next?
Choice Votes Statistics
Add the move with the ball tweak this preseason! 51 48 %
Add the move with the ball tweak next preseason! 54 51 %

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Movement With The Ball Tweak Options
Wickerbasket
#141 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 3:47:25 PM





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FIDAdmin wrote:
villeeee wrote:

Most likely from defensive attributes? It will be passing that will go, so defenders are forced to play even more safe sideways and backwards passes rather than being able to go for a risky offensive option. More boring play.

Well, if defenders believe defensive attributes more important than passing yes. But that will mean more failed passes which gives more opportunites to the opponents. I doubt everyone think passing are the attributes to lower. We can only speculate though of course. Could be speed or something like that as well


Oh it could be. But it won't be. It will absolutely be passing which means we lose another highly effective attacking tool - the turnover hoof.

Every point you've made has been shot down solidly. It really is realism versus fun, beefing defence over attack. But with every point you've made it clear that you're not really interested in debate. I've wanted you guys to be more iron fisty for ages - but this really isn't the thing you should be so stubborn over.
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thegreenwoods wrote:
I agree with the points made by James.
villeeee
#142 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 4:04:22 PM



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FIDAdmin wrote:
villeeee wrote:

Most likely from defensive attributes? It will be passing that will go, so defenders are forced to play even more safe sideways and backwards passes rather than being able to go for a risky offensive option. More boring play.

Well, if defenders believe defensive attributes more important than passing yes. But that will mean more failed passes which gives more opportunites to the opponents. I doubt everyone think passing are the attributes to lower. We can only speculate though of course. Could be speed or something like that as well.


I'm sure there will be a couple of stupid defenders who opt to give up defensive stats, but 95% of people are smart enough to realize that it's defensive stats to SQ first and then either passing or BC or whatever if you can afford some of those. You're being delusional if you think this change will make defenders have less defensive stats. But hey, even easier games v Svarta in the future I guess if that's your gameplan. If anything though, defenders might decrease their other more offensive stats - There are a lot of SDs out there with dribbling and even some CDs, those might drop that dribbling and add it to more defensive stats now that there's another attribute they would need to train to be effective with the ball.

Quote:
Sure all dribblers have ballcontrol but far from everyone have around max ball control. So if you mean that all dribblers have around SQ ball control then you are plain wrong.


Well, any decent dribbler should have lets say at least VG ball control already. You yourself said this change isn't that big - So surely between SQ BC and VG BC there won't be really any difference in their running paces then? Whilst the players that aren't dribblers and thus most likely only have something like Good/MB/Mediocre/Poor BC will be the ones to suffer. So yes, it makes dribblers even more OP compared to other player types.

It also makes passing much less important since playing a good through ball won't be as important anymore. It makes fighting less important because if you invest points in all FFB stats, you won't be able to afford to get any BC really due to the high amount of FFB stats.
FIDAdmin
#143 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 5:27:32 PM



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Wickerbasket and villeeee...

"Every point you say have been shot down solidly" is nothing but an opinion since you cannot say for sure how it will be and you have not showed how it would be shot down. You just take for granted that the worst case scenario will be the scenario that will happen. And I do not agree with that. We can already see that defenders have lowered fight for the ball attributes for passing.

You are "absolutley" sure that all users will lower passing instead of defensive attributes. And this even when we see users lowering defensive attributes in order to raise passing etc already. Many defenders have lowered defensive attributes in order to have better passing skills and dribbling skills. Even you two (wickerbasket and villeeee) have many footballers like that.

We already see players with Good and MB dribbling who can successfully dribble against SQ tacklers. We see SDs especially but also CDs who have boosted the passing attributes a bit even when the FFB skills are not maxed etc. And you know what? Most defenders look a bit different nowadays from each other just because they want to raise some passing and dribbling here and there on different scales. Why is that? And why would it be SO different when the tweak is added?

You paint a picture where all players are specialists and want to have SQ in all "important" attributes. This is a picture that was true BEFORE the momentum was introduced. When momentum was introduced then this has changed -a lot. Nowadays even non maxed FFB footballers can win most fights with help of good positioning (and because of the fact that also opponents do not often go all out towers etc). Nowadays Mediocre/MB dribblers dribbles against top tacklers and are successful because of momentum. At the same time also passing has been more appriciated. And dribbling. And tackling. And shooting. Nowadays most footballers have use of most attributes. The FID world where all are aiming for SQ in all "important" attributes are not the case anymore simply because those footballers are too limited in the other areas. Sure some specialists still are around but they do really Even your own footballers shows this. Still you seem to think this will change all of a sudden because of this tweak and that all defenders who do give up defensive attributes are stupid (villeeee's words - not mine or Wickerbaskets words). Still this is exactly how it looks now. And if there are many players with Good/MB dribbling who dribbles nowadays - why would not great dribblers with low ballcontrol exist?

And that good passes are less important after the tweak makes no change? Well that is very hard for me to understand for sure. But in the end. You paint your picture that all footballers go for SQ in all "important" attributes while I look at how it actually looks and cannot see what that picture comes from since I have another view where more diversed players are successfull all over FID.

So lets just say that we agree to disagree and that the only way to see how it will actually turn out is to actually test the tweak.

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feelow
#144 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 5:46:22 PM





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no more changes

kill skills let only 5 all have sq em and have realistic fun
Mini Miudo
#145 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 5:53:02 PM





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FIDAdmin wrote:
And that good passes are less important after the tweak makes no change? Well that is very hard for me to understand for sure. But in the end. You paint your picture that all footballers go for SQ in all "important" attributes while I look at how it actually looks and cannot see what that picture comes from since I have another view where more diversed players are successfull all over FID.


It's obvious that there won't be such a high need for perfect passes after the tweak. How is it hard to understand? Right now, if you have a tower a tiny bit in front of a defender on the HW line, for example, you can play a perfect pass and he will still be in front and will be able to run through on goal. With this change, you wouldn't even attempt the pass as you know he's gonna get caught anyway.

And please tell me, where do you see "diversed" players being successful in FID? Show me some examples, I'm really, really curious (not sarcastic).

By the way, I already go for dribblers only, and this change will just solidify that. MatthewRoy generally has some towers, and he's stated himself that his characters will all be dribblers in the future. And this will be the case with most people. It doesn't really need to be tested if we're telling you what's gonna happen for sure beforehand.
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villeeee
#146 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 6:00:06 PM



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As for me and James having ''many such footballers'', I personally only have 1 defender that isn't a recent take-over. As SD, hes's got 95+ speed, acc, agility, tackling, strength and fearlessness - All the attributes I believe are key for an SD defensively. Having fear there is even stretching it, I doubt I'd really need it at SQ. Also 4* sliding and training it to 5.

He's got some offensive skills rather than FFB, sure, but that's just because SDs don't need very high FFB as most SMs don't have it. I've not sacrificed any significant defensive stats for an SD to get him dribbling, passing and even a bit of shooting (which is mostly for a joke)

If I had a CD that wasn't just taken over, he would definitely first have SQ in Strength, Tackling, Jumping, Balance, Speed and very high levels in Agility, Fear, Def Pos as well before even considering getting BC/Passing/whatever. The only reason for not maxing out stuff like Fear, DefPos, would be because the game is faulty and 5*Airspace/Zidane give a CD 4 easy FFB wins against any tower even with slightly lower attributes.

As for James, I believe he trains some of his chars in a way that wouldn't be optimal for a regular team due to his Team Basket project.

Look at my Swedish teams' defenders, we won the league overwhelmingly last season so you'd assume these guys would somewhat know what to train:

Anti's got some weaker defensive attributes now, but that's because he's 39 years old, it's all declined. It's not about choosing to train other stuff, until his char got too old he had all the key attributes at SQ and even most of the non-key defensive attributes up there. 5* sliding. His passing is up there, sure, but he got it up there before his attributes started declining so heavily.

Zanetti has SQ dribble and BC, true - But he has SQ in all the key defensive stats for an SD as well, he's not giving up anything of great importance. SQ in speed, acc, agility, strength and tackling of course. Nothing of importance given up. 5* sliding.

Tirath has superb dribbling, but all his key defensive stats - again, speed, acc, agility, strength, tackling - are SQ, or just fallen below SQ. 5* sliding.

Panes has Fantastic's over the board, but that's again an age matter more than choosing to train other stuff. His passing stats are still 30 points below all defensive attributes (key or not), his BC is 40 points below them... And 5* in all defensive specials.

Couto is weaker, but that's just a weaker character overall. No ball control whatsoever, 40ish passing... Not like he has passing and vision in the 70s or something and that's why his FFB stats are weaker.

No defender in the champions of your precious Swedish league has given up defensive stats to get good in anything else.
Neuromancer1
#147 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 6:19:19 PM





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villeeee wrote:
AThe only reason for not maxing out stuff like Fear, DefPos, would be because the game is faulty and 5*Airspace/Zidane give a CD 4 easy FFB wins against any tower even with slightly lower attributes.


Doesn't even need to be slightly, and the cd can come 2nd to the ball about 5 seconds later and still win it. Whistle Snooty

MatthewRoy
#148 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 8:05:28 PM




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FIDAdmin wrote:

It all depends on which type of tower you want to be still. Pure tower then you do not need speed which defenders need overall. More of a mix of a tower and speedster who can run with the ball, then you probably need to lower FFB attributes. But who says all players must be able to do everything? And tower CDs. Who says they all wanna ignore ball control? Seen comments about the bad thing that CDs need to train ball control now all of a sudden.

The arguments you all put forward all points at the fact that it actually will create more diversed types of footballers really if asking me.

If you think CDs are going to sacrifice defensive skills to train ball control you are being delusional.
Those that will do that (being weak at ffb or tackling to be more offensive) will only hurt their own team. As I said before you get an offensive play at CD once in a while you won't build your character for it.. you build it in a way that you can win with 2 stars that key FFB or tackle to get your team a result.

For tower CFs your argument is "players shouldn't be supposed to do everything". The tower CFs hardly do "everything", in fact they have a very limited role and amount of things they can do already:

- Fight for the ball efficiently (if trained properly), at disadvantage when against a strong level of airspace
- Shoot with not really satisfactory accuracy even when you have maxed out shooting stats (this counts for all strikers, but towers in particular as they are the most effected by being pressured, having bad momentum)
- Run with the ball without being tackled if you have good level of speed-acc-agility

It's hard already for some to achieve this kind of limited skillset of three things (in fact some must settle for a slower character who can't run or a worse shooter already). If you add ball control to that it's going to be even more difficult to have a tower CF who is something more than a one trick pony who can do just one thing (win the fight in the box and shoot)

new question that will be ignored (like the last one where I have asked how does this make the game experience better for everyone, not how we will see different builds and all of that, just how fun the match engine will be for us that spend hours and hours playing compared to the good version we have right now)
For what reason do you think I would make a tower char with the limited skillset I have wrote about above when just by neglecting the FFB stats I can have a char who can do:
- Run at max speed with or without the ball
- Pass the ball
- Shoot the ball
- Dribble with maxed out specials
- a good level of tackling (optional)

Surely I would have to be masochistic to go for a fighter build right now, when most of the times I can avoid getting in a fight anyway and good teams usually avoid them. And from my perspective this change only make the whole fighter build even less appealing
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Wickerbasket
#149 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 8:05:41 PM





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I have to ask, why is absolutley in speech marks? If you're schooling someone on spelling, I should really show you more of your own site Flapper

If this was a debate class, make no qualms about it - the community would be winning. We've stayed on point, backed up our hypothesis with evidence and given quite a lot of varied reasons also. Unfortunately it isn't, as I said in my previous post it doesn't really matter what we think because your mind is made up. It's the equivalent of trying to argue with someone who is religious, because they have "faith". You have faith this will work, not even a boatload of logic and reasoning is going to change that it would seem. And that is a shame.

You keep talking about my characters - the ones you quoted were either 22 and nowhere near finished training, 38 and are way beyond their peak or a 37 year old take over. So if you really want to dissect my characters, let's do it together.


I've actually been one of the few people in this game to put a lot more faith in ball control than is perhaps justified. I'm convinced it helps with low fights, I know it helps with passing and shooting, and it definitely helps with dribbling - so for you to try and pick apart my characters, either you're using a database that doesn't tell you the player's age or you're just nitpicking to try and help your argument. Again, we're back to comparing you to the religious sect.

If you really wanted to make it so that jack of all trades characters could prosper in this game (they really struggle as it stands at the minute) then my suggestion would be - and correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure this was changed - that the gap between 61 and 65 stats should be the same as 91-96. I have it in my head that the gap between 61 and 65 is significantly less than 91 and 96 when it comes to fighting which is something that was changed a long time ago. If you reversed that, it would mean that younger characters become stronger quicker and then we could share our stats around more because having 71 in everything wouldn't be so far behind only having 96 in each.

Slightly off topic that one, and I might even be wrong on my memory of that. But if your goal was really to encourage people spreading around the stats, I'd maybe reconsider that one.
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thegreenwoods wrote:
I agree with the points made by James.
feelow
#150 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 9:20:55 PM





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game brings in a technique skill

and you all cry for the op physicals(isnt too much physical speedywoodcutters the game already)

sure you want and a more value in mentals in future

seems 7sq skills not enouf for some exp users and afraid if sacrifize 1


what all say about towers-cds and ffbs-specials?whats these shyets?

how many ffbs happening nowdays inside boxes and whom take the invy advantage for better positioning?

invys>ffbs, no?

still waiting 1 shucksing game showing towers run and have fun outside boxes


as for passes and defnders if yor defender cant pass you cant counter cant turnover aka you cant attack
FIDAdmin
#151 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:39:10 PM



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To make a long story short. I say it again. Your evidence and reasons are based upon the way you believe it will work like. So this does not mean you have a solid case for all beliefs. So just as for the Admin team you believe it will be in a certain way, while we do not. So we are just as religious in this case with two different beliefs. Your evidence is solid in your belief while it is not solid in our belief.

And the footballers you own that I mentioned. You seem to do quite well with those and that is my point. You will do well even after a tweak. It is not crucial to have max in all "important" attributes. Footballers who does not have max ball control will not be useless.

And just because it is not much of a problem to have low ball controll as it is now and still handle it and move with it as the best ball wizards in the team does not mean it is good as it is. There will be a weakness that shows when having low ball controll. And then it will make the footballers more diversed since ball control will be of bigger importance as soon as you want to be able to run with it. You can choose to have it low and get better attributes in other attributes and it will be you choice. And as I see it - this is something even CDs may not want to be too bad at just as with passing. Have low passing skills is a weakness. This does not mean everyone wants to train it. They maybe simply believe that other attributes are more important. But some may want to train it.

One less "obvious" dump attribute for some roles basicly.

You do not agree. Get that. But you cannot say that it is solid evidence you have put forward. It is your version of how you BELIEVE it will be if the tweak is made just as we do NOT BELIEVE in that version but in another.

So as said before. We must agree to disagree in our view of this. But we will of course discuss this further within the Admin team.
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AoG90
#152 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:47:44 PM





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I'm one that is a bit positive to a change in this area. However I'm not sure that this is the way to go to solve it. The points that is being made against this is all very valid and could be very true. I also don't think this is a change that is needed, because it's just frustrating sometimes now. But you can accept it.

Anyhow it's plain and simply foolish to release this now. It's way too late and regardless what your unfair poll is saying.

Also have anyone actually been able to test this? It's kind of impossible and pointless to test it out in the Test Center. You need a couple of users to try it out with you. To really see the effect of it. You asked for feedback. Just reading this post it's kind of clear that many users don't think this is a good idea. The poll doesn't tell you anything because you are asking the wrong question.


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Mini Miudo
#153 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:51:37 PM





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Difference is your arguments suck, all you say is it will be more realistic (who cares), brings more builds (it won't, but even if it does, is it worth making the game worse for more builds? nope), and it'll make it harder to dribble (even though most dribblers (all good dribblers) have SQ ball control so it WON'T make it harder to dribble for most), but you have no reason whatsoever on how this will make the game more enjoyable for anyone, and we do have reasons on how it WILL make the game less enjoyable for many.
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scotty196222
#154 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 10:51:48 PM





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FIDAdmin wrote:
To make a long story short. I say it again. Your evidence and reasons are based upon the way you believe it will work like. So this does not mean you have a solid case for all beliefs. So just as for the Admin team you believe it will be in a certain way, while we do not. So we are just as religious in this case with two different beliefs. Your evidence is solid in your belief while it is not solid in our belief.

And the footballers you own that I mentioned. You seem to do quite well with those and that is my point. You will do well even after a tweak. It is not crucial to have max in all "important" attributes. Footballers who does not have max ball control will not be useless.

And just because it is not much of a problem to have low ball controll as it is now and still handle it and move with it as the best ball wizards in the team does not mean it is good as it is. There will be a weakness that shows when having low ball controll. And then it will make the footballers more diversed since ball control will be of bigger importance as soon as you want to be able to run with it. You can choose to have it low and get better attributes in other attributes and it will be you choice. And as I see it - this is something even CDs may not want to be too bad at just as with passing. Have low passing skills is a weakness. This does not mean everyone wants to train it. They maybe simply believe that other attributes are more important. But some may want to train it.

One less "obvious" dump attribute for some roles basicly.

You do not agree. Get that. But you cannot say that it is solid evidence you have put forward. It is your version of how you BELIEVE it will be if the tweak is made just as we do NOT BELIEVE in that version but in another.

So as said before. We must agree to disagree in our view of this. But we will of course discuss this further within the Admin team.


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IndyBre
#155 Posted : Sunday, April 26, 2015 11:10:22 PM





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ball twerk Laugh Out Loud Laugh Out Loud

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Wickerbasket
#156 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 12:00:49 AM





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FIDAdmin wrote:
To make a long story short. I say it again. Your evidence and reasons are based upon the way you believe it will work like. So this does not mean you have a solid case for all beliefs. So just as for the Admin team you believe it will be in a certain way, while we do not. So we are just as religious in this case with two different beliefs. Your evidence is solid in your belief while it is not solid in our belief.


Except we have the Test Center, so I wouldn't quite go that far. We can see the difference, and it will lead to less scoring opportunities. We can also see that as experienced users, only people in the wrong frame of mind would bother to be a tower CF. So we can see, less builds. Less identity, and less football. Seems to be against the grain of the site.

FIDAdmin wrote:
And the footballers you own that I mentioned. You seem to do quite well with those and that is my point. You will do well even after a tweak. It is not crucial to have max in all "important" attributes. Footballers who does not have max ball control will not be useless.


Honestly? With the way I train my characters and the plan I have in place at Team Basket - I fully expect to become a stronger team. My SDs have always been dribblers and have always had SQ ball control, except for Frost as he's too old. This isn't about me and my success rate in any way shape or form, else I would be 100% for this.

On top of my dribblers not being affected, and my opponents more so, with the people then steering towards not having towers my plan at Team Basket to be able to field 11 dribblers, or 11 towers based on who I am playing against becomes even more beautiful. So thank you, I may actually have a shot at winning England 1A with these changes. If you think that's a positive change still, then go for it Flapper
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thegreenwoods wrote:
I agree with the points made by James.
scotty196222
#157 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 12:28:28 AM





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Wickerbasket wrote:
FIDAdmin wrote:
To make a long story short. I say it again. Your evidence and reasons are based upon the way you believe it will work like. So this does not mean you have a solid case for all beliefs. So just as for the Admin team you believe it will be in a certain way, while we do not. So we are just as religious in this case with two different beliefs. Your evidence is solid in your belief while it is not solid in our belief.


Except we have the Test Center, so I wouldn't quite go that far. We can see the difference, and it will lead to less scoring opportunities. We can also see that as experienced users, only people in the wrong frame of mind would bother to be a tower CF. So we can see, less builds. Less identity, and less football. Seems to be against the grain of the site.

FIDAdmin wrote:
And the footballers you own that I mentioned. You seem to do quite well with those and that is my point. You will do well even after a tweak. It is not crucial to have max in all "important" attributes. Footballers who does not have max ball control will not be useless.


Honestly? With the way I train my characters and the plan I have in place at Team Basket - I fully expect to become a stronger team. My SDs have always been dribblers and have always had SQ ball control, except for Frost as he's too old. This isn't about me and my success rate in any way shape or form, else I would be 100% for this.

On top of my dribblers not being affected, and my opponents more so, with the people then steering towards not having towers my plan at Team Basket to be able to field 11 dribblers, or 11 towers based on who I am playing against becomes even more beautiful. So thank you, I may actually have a shot at winning England 1A with these changes. If you think that's a positive change still, then go for it Flapper


Wickerbasket the best user FID's ever seen.

Applause

edit:Hes so good he created this game as he knows everything.

You're the man! He even speaks to his own 11 selfs on TS hehe !!

Applause

Lost a few badges there I see hehehe oh dear.

Biggrin





Quote:
I wonder what shenanigans I was getting up to on that evening.....


Wickerbasket
#158 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 1:07:36 AM





Rank: Senior Master
Joined: 2/3/2010
Posts: 9,467
Points: 39,883
Location: Grantham
Only position I'd say I was the best at would be offensive SD. Ragnevi is better at being disciplined as an SD than I am, Cam is a better goalkeeper than me, Calin is a better DCM, Goncalves was a magical ACM, Kalle is a beast mode CD and Shanks would probably be a more productive SM than mine has been if it had age on his side. Forwards, there's a lot of good ones. Ptara was probably the best I can remember that I played with.

I don't think I'm the best user on this game, but when it comes to one man teams no man can match me at this.

Edit: Lode Marchand for CF, now that I thought about it.

And if you think I care about doing less free work for this site, you're mistaken XD
#3 James Frost - Side Defender of Team Ten
Proud to be Goalkeeper, Left Side Defender, Right Side Defender, Central Defender, Left Central Defender, Right Central Defender, Left Central Midfielder, Central Midfielder, Right Central Midfielder, Left Forward, Right Forward and Manager of Team Basket Academy


thegreenwoods wrote:
I agree with the points made by James.
villeeee
#159 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 1:09:32 AM



Key User Group: User recieved this medal for taking part in the FID Key User Group (KUG)

Rank: Senior Master
Joined: 11/1/2009
Posts: 7,156
Points: 24,317
Wickerbasket wrote:
Only position I'd say I was the best at would be offensive SD. Ragnevi is better at being disciplined as an SD than I am, Cam is a better goalkeeper than me, Calin is a better DCM, Goncalves was a magical ACM, Kalle is a beast mode CD and Shanks would probably be a more productive SM than mine has been if it had age on his side. Forwards, there's a lot of good ones. Ptara was probably the best I can remember that I played with.

I don't think I'm the best user on this game, but when it comes to one man teams no man can match me at this.


minis saying in TS you arent the best SD

hes also saying kalle is terribad which i agree with

Im the best ACM bitchez
Unkn0wngenius
#160 Posted : Monday, April 27, 2015 1:09:37 AM


FID Ambassador Medal: User recieved this medal for taking part in the FID Ambassador Program

Rank: Expert
Joined: 2/4/2010
Posts: 1,996
Points: 7,616
Location: Eikanger
James pls

Best GK: Me
Best SD: Me
Best CD: Me
Best CM: Me
Best SM: Me
Best CF: Me


World Champion S23




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