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FIDAdmin
#1 Posted : Monday, May 09, 2011 11:45:52 PM



Head Staff Medal: Medal rewarded for being part of the Head Staff at Footballidentity

Rank: Administration
Joined: 3/10/2009
Posts: 5,070
Points: 14,885
Hello everyone!

As you all probably know I am the newest member of the Admin Team. I joined the team in June 2010 with a 50% role as "Community Manager" even though I end up working much more than those 50% overall.

What I do is that I work as a link between the Head staff (Head Moderator and Head GM) and the Admin team. I also try to support the Head Staff when they need support. I am also the one who have the first look at all support mails that are sent to us and forward the mails to the correct person for the job. This is if I cannot reply myself that is.

I also handle the team forum requests which takes quite a lot of time even though it not as much job as it was when I joined the Admin Team. The difference from when I started and now is that I had to create all the forums manually in the beginning while I now "only" need to move forums and change moderators basicly since forums are now created when new teams are created, and team forum names are changed when team names are changed. This is just one of many improvements that have been made "behind the scenes".

I do a lot of other things as well but I do not handle any of the techniqual matters except reporting problems and bugs to the rest of the Admin Team and help out with testing new features.

About myself... I am in my early 30s and I am an experienced player when it comes to online football games. I have been in "GM/Moderator" roles in other online games and when I got the opportunity to jump aboard this ship I could not refuse.

I am a big sport fan and I enjoy watching football and hockey in particular and I have also played football myself in lower divisions in Sweden before I had to quit because of injuries. Play online football games and watch football and hockey have been a kind of substitute for playing football for real one can say.

What I can say more in this first post is that I know what it is like to be a user in online football games and now I also know what it is like to be in the Admin Team of a online football game. What have I realised from this? The Admin team REALLY appriciate the users and the feedback that they give and all the effort and energy they put in the game. I have also realised that the users who naturally wants to see progress probably cannot understand all the work "behind the scenes". Not only the work from the Admin team but also from the users who take on the roles as moderators, GMs and last but not the least - the Head Staff.

I often read in the forums and see all the great suggestions and opinions that are posted just as the other Admins do and on top of this we have many ideas of improvements ourself as well. Our biggest wish right now is that all basics were working just fine and that we could continue with our developing of the game engine and to be honest with you all I do not believe it is that far away before we can start to make improvements that you all notice when playing. Tweaks (when it comes to blocking) have already been made as you know and this is something we will work on more in other areas as well of course.

Except of this I have looked at the FIDA GOVERNING DOCUMENT that was sent to us quite some time ago. It looks really promising and we will have an internal chat about it and send some feedback back soon.

That is it for now!
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FIDAdmin
#2 Posted : Friday, June 10, 2011 2:34:36 PM



Head Staff Medal: Medal rewarded for being part of the Head Staff at Footballidentity

Rank: Administration
Joined: 3/10/2009
Posts: 5,070
Points: 14,885
Now it is time for some words from me again. It has been busy weeks since last time I wrote and many exciting things have happened.

The Key User Group has been formed and they are discussing interesting things daily and among those things i can mention discussions around inierta/momentum, lowering of skills, tweaking of skills, etc. The level of discussion is very high and there are often links to to the rest of the forums about good ideas etc. It works even better than we would have dreamed of I must say.

Personally I cannot wait until we have brought the Identity back to Footballidentity and I think it will be great when it is finally done. I also think that the upcoming tweaks of the skills will make other skills than speed a LOT more interesting and I am sure most players should think twice before going for great speed after the skill reduction. Great if asking me!

The season is more or less over by now and it feels like leagues in the FID slowly catch up with the Swedish league even though the Swedish league probably is the toughest still. That the competitions are getting tougher all over FID is also good. Everyone loves tough competitions, right? smiling

On the support front many of you have probably noticed the little text/link on the bottom of the site which says "Contact Game Masters". This is a great feature which have given the GMs the possibility to take care of many of the support mails and also queries about bans (it can also be reached when banned and try to log in) and cheater reports. Also the GMs have better tools nowadays and they have started to catch a lot of cheaters.

On top of this we have also a great Head Translator Coordinator that you can contact via fid.headtranslator@communisport.com. He has started to get the translations going and we believe he will be able to make sure that there are more and better translations if he is given some time.

You may also have noticed that the forums have been restructered by our excellent Head Moderator? If not then I guess the changes have been made has been good. If you have noticed it - is it not much better? I really think so anyway. smiling

When discussing Great Head Moderators. You probably remember cbshea who were Head Moderator a while ago. He has now started a user recruiting competition. Make sure you join that competition here!

Hope you all are having a great time this beatiful summer. Here in Sweden the weather is just great and it almost "too hot"! I am probably part vampire considering I am trying to run from shadow to shadow while taking a walk outside as it is now...

That is all for this time I think and make sure you recharge your batteries for the upcoming season to be as fit as possible for the upcoming changes!
FAQ: http://footballidentity.com/Help/Content/

Read our FAQ to find out more about:
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FIDAdmin
#3 Posted : Friday, October 21, 2011 5:39:57 PM



Head Staff Medal: Medal rewarded for being part of the Head Staff at Footballidentity

Rank: Administration
Joined: 3/10/2009
Posts: 5,070
Points: 14,885
It is time for me, for a change, to spread some words about what is currently happening and what we are currently working with. Right now we are working with some very important things both on the match engine and on the main site and I will therefore explain what we are working on within these two main areas that may be of interest for you.

The Match Engine
What we work on in the match engine can be described as below.
Manager Control AI feature -> Basic Footballer Rules -> Tweaks -> Momentum
The status of these features is that three out of four are soon finalized. The manager Control AI Feature and the Basic Football Rules can already be tested on our Test Center as many of you have already noticed. There you can find things such as specific goalkeeper actions named Goal Kick and Drop Kick who can both reach longer than normal High Passes with their own ball trajectories. You can also test the new throwin option called High Throwin which will make the throwins a lot less dangerous for the team with the throwin. The manager Control AI feature is something we believe many will find very entertaining. It is a feature where the manager can control one footballer every turn as long as the user behind the footballer has not been active for the last three turns. As soon as the user makes a decision for his footballer then that decison overrides the decision of the manager though. As manager in the Test Center you will actually control the opponent team that play against the team that you normally play in when you play the test matches.

The tweaks is something we have done quite a lot with as well but we have not put them on the test center yet. The programming part of the tweaks has been made and what is that we need to simulate and calculate all new parameters for the different actions and of course testing follows after that. What we have now opened up for with the programming changes is that skills such as passing and shooting will be possible to be much better tuned on different ranges but also that skilled players will not hit as bad passes or perform as bad shots as badly skilled players can. We have a LOT more tools to tune the balance of different passes and finishing action just as we want them. Good players will be more reliable with their actions overall when it comes to passing and shooting when this is done. One of the greatest benefits from the tweaks will be that short and simple passes will be much easier which means that a user can start to adjust their way of playing according to the abilities of their footballer(s) in order to become more successful. We REALLY believe that playmakers and good finishers will show a lot more when we are ready with our tweaks and we will most likely see playmakers who can hit those beautiful long passes over and over again while bad passers probably will try to find those short easy passes or maybe just clear the ball with no real control of where the ball will end up.

When the three first steps are finished then we will be able to focus all our Match Engine resources on the momentum feature. It is obvious that momentum will change FID forever and will have a big impact on the experience that also experienced users will get from playing. FID matches will get many more nuances and games will be so much more different from each other and "dynamic". This is why we want to focus on this when we have the more basic features fixed. It will simply be easier to know how to balance the momentum feature if the rest of the game engine is as finished as possible.

The Main Site
The road map for the site development is just as important as the ME development and we have some big tasks in front of us that can be divided into the following two steps:
FIDA Pages -> Tournament Center

The FIDA Pages will be something really big. We are stuffing more and more things in it the more we are specifying it and what we are really doing with this is moving over a lot of the control of the FID world over to the community itself. FIDA's will be able to handle things related to league activity (match times, rescheduling of matches, playoff handling, moving teams between leagues in order to create active top tiers, appointing and firing managers, picking starting lineup for teams without manager (new teams) etc. etc). As you understand this will however require some very advanced monitoring and validation mechanics to be put in place for continental and international FIDA's to work with so that powers are not abused.

I am sure that once FIDA pages are released it will actually create a new and exciting experience for experienced users. Both for those who wants to take part in FIDA work but also for other users who will interact with FIDA and get a bigger acknowledgment thanks to FIDA.

And then finally... The tournament center. This will be the thing that "dots the i" when it comes to creating the new experience for users and especially the experienced ones since they will be the ones most likely to be picked to play for their national team. The most important part of the tournament center (the part that I am actually talking about here) is the part that FIDAs can use to create tournaments such as WC, Euro, Champions League, National Cups etc. and only once we have FIDAs in place we can really get those shows on the road. And once we can do that we can also make those competitions "official", thereby generating stats, awards etc.

Information about the FID Staff
I can also add that our new head translator has started to get the translations going, that our GM Team have come up with some suggestions of changes of how to make the World Awards better and more fair and that we will give them feedback about this as soon as we get time for that. The moderator team are currently working without a real head moderator, which is not good of course. We have got some applications for the position and even if it is still possible to apply for the role, the time is starting to run out - so make sure you send your application in as soon as possible if you are interested in becoming the new Head Moderator.

That is all for now I believe so all that is left for me to say is that I wish you all a good evening and a nice weekend!
FAQ: http://footballidentity.com/Help/Content/

Read our FAQ to find out more about:
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FIDAdmin
#4 Posted : Friday, February 10, 2012 2:25:40 PM



Head Staff Medal: Medal rewarded for being part of the Head Staff at Footballidentity

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Joined: 3/10/2009
Posts: 5,070
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I read a nice article today. It is called "Give us FID back!" and can be found here.

The article starts with a very nice comic strip and ends with quite a lot of reasoning after that. I did not fully agree in what the article tried to point out but I realised it is time to post a blog post to explain some things around what is discussed in that article, other articles and also in the forums.

What is entirely missed in the article is that the randomness is not as important now compared to how it was and skills REALLY matters now. So if you think it is too much randomness why go back to the old match engine? If we would bring the old match engine back then we would have more randomness and less influence from the skills. I am sure that no one really wants the old match engine back.

As most of you probably know by now we are also working hard on implementing the momentum feature. It is something that will change FID completely and it will have a direct impact on the importance of randomness. With momentum we will be able to increase the importance of the individual user decisions (as well as the combined team decisions) and thereby decreasing the importance of randomness. Until we have momentum as the tool for establishing this we believe that the randomness we have now is well balanced overall. FIDAdmin1 wrote about momentum in his blogg which you can find here.

The real question is how much skills of a player should matter? Do we really want Star Quality fighters for the ball win 19/20 against superb fighters for the ball? Maybe Star Quality fighters should win 99 out of 100 fights against mediocre fighters for the ball and 999 out 1000 against useless fighters for the ball? The question is then - who wants to play against those great players when they will not have a reasonable chance to win even a single fight?

What I believe must be understood is the basics of randomness and statistics. This really seems to be what is lacking when discussing this together with the two different star systems that seems to be hard to grasp and which I will handle later in this post. But first some basics of randomness and statistics.

Randomness and statistics
I can start with a really simple example. If you hit five dices and want ones on all of them, then you will not get ones on all of those every sixth time you throw those five dices but once in 7776 dice throws just as the probability of hitting two sixes with one throw with two dices are 1/36. With this simple example I will lead this on to what could be an example in Footballidentity.

We may for example have set the odds of winning a fight between a Star Quality fighter and Good fighter to 9/10 wins for the better fighter. To calculate the odds of winning every fight in a row will then be the following:
One ffb won - 90%
Two ffb won in a row - 81%
Three ffb won in a row - 73%
Four ffb won in a row - 66%
Five ffb won in a row - 59%
Six ffb won in a row - 53%
Seven ffb won in a row - 48%
Eight ffb won in a row - 43%
Nine ffb won in a row - 39%
Ten ffb won in a row - 35%

This means that even if the odds of winning one single ffb in that situation is as high as 90%, it is still actually more unlikely than likely to win seven fights for the ball in a row. So with 90% chance of winning a fight for the ball then the probability should give six straight wins and then a lost fight for the ball out of the seven fights for the ball.

But as you can see already at four fights in a row the winning streak should end one out of three times. On top of that you must remember that one out of ten of the first fight for the ball should be a failed fight for the ball directly.

What I try to show here is just because the odds may be 90% to win a single fight does not mean that you will have 90% to win nine straight fights for the ball and loose that last tenth. The row of wins are actually likely to end much earlier and the odds of actually losing two, three or even four fights for the ball during those ten fights for the ball are not that unlikely as it may seem. This is why people who work with statistics always want as big samples as possible.

I have watched many examples of matches when users have complained about bad luck. Sure they have been unlucky in isolated cases but in many cases they have also been really lucky. For example a dribbler complained about so many failed dribbles. When watching the match log I could see that he would not even had the chance to dribble if he had not been lucky to win some fights for the ball first and that when looking at the situations he had actually been more lucky than unlucky when looking at both the FFB and the dribbles.

What can be felt when playing though is that it is important to be lucky in the right situations. Perhaps a forward with lousy dribbling skills try to dribble and succeeded with three silver stars (maybe close to three golden stars but that does not show). He gets into the box and release his deadly shot and get an amazing 5 bar shot off! Unfortunately the shot precision was a red star and the shot went over.

What the user of the forward probably will focus on there is the great quality of the shot and the red star and curse his bad luck when he actually was really lucky both with the dribble and the quality of the shot and “only” bad luck with the accuracy. In total he was actually lucky and had not even had that shot attempt if he had not succeeded that dribble.

Investigations have been made both by us and users and the randomness REALLY seem to work as it should. We have really big differences between good and bad footballers when it comes to FFB, dribbles/tackles and passing/shooting precision and we really can tell that it do make a big difference overall. We may need to tweak further but we do not believe we should make any bigger tweaks to be honest.

What many users seem to forget is that many players who are specialised often tend to be up against the opponents counter specialists and this often takes the edge of each other or maybe the specialist is up against multiple of opponents where many succeeded actions in a row is needed and we have to think about the dices example above again. Add actions such as hard tackles and special abilities that increase the odds of succeeding/failing certain actions and there are even more things to consider.

The Bars and Stars - the Indicators
About the stars that are shown it seems like it is not possible to explain it too many times so I will do that again as well. We have two different systems of showing stars.

1. “Precision/randomness stars” which are showed when passing and shooting. These stars simply show the randomness. A red star means that the footballer has been almost as unlucky as he/she can be while for example three silver stars show that the footballer was luckier than normally. Three stars for a bad passer for example may therefore be equal to a one star pass for a really good passer and it is always as likely to get for example two stars no matter what the skills are like. In other words, a Star Quality passer gets as many red stars as a Very Poor passer.

What could be mentioned here is also that the quality bars shows how good the shot/pass is and is not in any way connected to the precision of the shot/pass. Two shooters/passers – one really bad and one really good - who performs two shots/passes (one each) with the exact same quality have the same difficulty to interact with no matter what the shooter/passer skills are like and also no matter how accurate the shot/pass has been.

The quality bar always show how good quality the shot/pass has and the good shooters/passers are more likely to get high quality shots/passes than bad shooters/passers. So a good shooter/passer and a bad shooter/passer with the exact same quality only means that the better shooter have not fulfilled his/her potential as fully as the worse shooter has.

2. “Favourite/underdog stars” show how the footballer performs compared to the odds he/she has when it comes to fight/dribble/tackle/saving/punching/receiving/blocking. If a footballer is more likely to win/succeed than 50% and wins then he/she will get two stars. If he/she is less likely to win the footballer will get three silver stars or three golden stars if winning depending on how unlikely the footballer was to win/succeed and on the same time the loosing/failed footballer will get a silver star or a red star. This means that when there are fights for the ball and more than two footballers are involved it is quite normal to see the winner getting three stars while the loosing footballers both getting two stars since no one was a clear favourite. This means that if a great fighter for the ball is up against a really bad fighter for the ball then both will get two stars as long as the great fighter win. If he/she loose though, then he will most likely get a red star while the bad fighter will get three golden stars. This means that if a player is unmatched in a skill and always is the favourite in a fight (not likely there are any footballers who are unmatched in all situations but still...) then that footballer would never get three stars - only two stars and one stars.

We may add that we are discussing if we may tweak the fights for the ball a bit further to lower the randomness even further just because there are so many fights when there are many footballers involved. The more footballers involved the less chance every single footballer has and then maybe it would be reasonable to weight the skills to matter a bit more.

At the same time the less skilled footballers will then be even weaker and we are not sure that it is what we want. Many who complaints can often look at themselves as better skilled than they actually are or they are simply looking at one isolated case. Perhaps they have great physical skills but quite low mental skills and then a more balanced footballer or a footballer who is just below the next skill level in many attributes may actually be pretty much as good as the seemingly stronger footballer. Or maybe that footballer have 48% chance to win against the better footballer and manage to win twice - showing three silver stars both times while the better gets one star showed twice.

The Poll
To reply to the poll that has been made that was referred to in the article. Lot of red stars on highly skilled players only means that they are superior enough to be considered as clear favourites and therefore get red stars the few times they lose fights and dribbles/tackles. It works exactly as it should that is. When a superior footballer fails then he/she has performed way under what is expected from him/her since a win was expected. The frustration that is showed from the community is most likely a result of our dual star system that seems to be hard to grasp for many and we are considering recoding the star system to only show the randomness (as for number 1 - precision stars - above) in order to make it easier for everyone to understand. It is not as easy as it may seem thought and it will give less exact information for the users when it comes to fights for the ball and dribbling/tackling and we are also currently busy with momentum so that is something for the future to consider.

We do listen but we cannot make everyone happy
I am not sure if this explains our view and why it may look like it is more random than it actually is but I thought I should at least give it a try. Maybe it will help someone at least and maybe we can at least get a bit more constructive debate regarding this. We do listen to your opinions and we are constantly evaluating the randomness and all suggestions that we get and we are working as hard as we can to improve the game along the core ideas of Footballidentity as we have always done. There are many things to improve and that we are fully aware of but no matter how much we improve we cannot make everyone happy. There will always be people who wants the game to go in another direction.

I can also add that we have two teams of developers. One is for the site and one is for the match engine. This means that when the site is updated that is not stealing any time from the match engine and vice versa. We have noticed frustrated users who think we are not working as hard as we can with the match engine because of the updates of the site. With this I want to make clear that they are working independently from each other and that updates of the site is only good because that means we can start with the next thing on the site then.

We can clearly see that greatly skilled players are dominating weaker players overall. In some matches here and there the underdog can win but that is also what we want to occur now and then. We want it to be a bit unpredictable or it would be really boring and nothing like real football. We also will do our very best to get a good balance of shooting quality and passing quality and also blocking in order to open up for more skills to be even more useful and create a bigger diversity of player types.

That is all for now everyone who has taken the time to read this wall of text. Keep up the good work with writing articles, debating and do not be afraid to voice your opinions. Just try to be constructive, respect the opinions of others and keep things polite and tidy and we will be happy take your opinions in and discuss it within the admin team and also give some feedback directly in the forums now and then.
FAQ: http://footballidentity.com/Help/Content/

Read our FAQ to find out more about:
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FIDAdmin
#5 Posted : Thursday, September 03, 2015 11:02:25 PM



Head Staff Medal: Medal rewarded for being part of the Head Staff at Footballidentity

Rank: Administration
Joined: 3/10/2009
Posts: 5,070
Points: 14,885
Randomness - skip it!

That seems to be an opinion that is slowly growing and I do believe it is because it is not clear to anyone how randomness, stars and attributes actually works together in Footballidentity. I therefore thought I would give you a long post about this with some concrete examples - but without real numbers. The numbers are purely fictional.

1. Simplified way of looking at randomness
Look at it as if you have a dice with 100 sides. This dice decides the outcome of every action, the lower the outcome the greater your chances of succeeding are. This means you can look at all actions and see it as you can see percentages of the likelihood of an outcome. If you need to get a dice result of 70 or lower than you basicly have 70% chance of succeeding. This is changed a bit by the normalised randomness though which we will look at next.

2. Normalised Randomness
We have added a kind of normalised randomness on many cases. This means that the dice will actually be more likely to end up on numbers around 50 than it normally does when you hit a dice with 100 sides. So instead of ending up on 50 1/100 times maybe it end up there 3 times. And instead of ending up on 100 1/100 times it may end up there 1/1000 times. Please note that these numbers are just fictional numbers to give you an idea of how it works - nothing else.

3. The Star Indicators
These stars are working together with randomness, the attributes and the other factors that increases and decreases the odds for the footballers such as confidence, positioning, momentum, chemistry penalties, out of position penalties, pressure from opponents and so on. The reason why we have these stars is that we want to show if the footballer succeeded or failed because of luck or bad luck or if it was because of good attributes and/or good user decisions. This is a tool for the users to find out themselves how the attributes are influencing the odds of succeeding and how the user decisions are increasing/decreasing the odds. The basic view of the stars are that they should be considered as following:
3 Golden Stars - REALLY lucky win! Don't expect to win that kind of action again!
3 Stars - You did not have the best odds and still won - you were lucky.
2 Stars - You won and the odds were on your side. You must have done something right here even though you do not know how great your odds were.
1 Star - You lost even though you had the odds on your side. A bit unlucky here.
1 Red Star - REALLY bad luck! Do that action again and you should win!

4. The Tweak of the Stars Compared to How It Used To Be
We made a tweak of the stars for this season. This did NOT change the randomness in any way - only the Star Indicators. Before the tweak we had listened to the community who wanted to see more two star actions - period. We therefore changed the star indicators from how it originally was. Originally the two stars was as simple as this: If you have better odds than 50% then you are expected to win. If you win then you and your opponent get two stars each. If you lose and have let say 52% chance of winning then it will show 1 star and the opponent will get 3 stars. This changed since the community wanted more two stars and we changed the star ranges. Now you would get 2 stars both if you had 40% chance of winning or if you had 60% winning. This means that if you had 58% chance of winning and the opponent had 42% then no matter the outcome it would show two stars. The good thing with this was that the community seemed to be happy with this. The bad thing was that when the extreme cases showed up such as someone having 59.89% chance of winning and lost, then it still showed 2 stars. "Why the heck did I expect to lose this fight when I had better attributes and had just as low momentum and positioning as my opponent?" and we got bug reports on this - "Something must be wrong with the randomness and the attributes does not matter at all!". Another bad thing was of course that you got a lot less accurate information of who were really the better side. So. What we did with the latest tweak was that we changed it back to how it used to be to see if the community was more ready for it now. Result? You all know that the discussions about two star leagues and that discussion about WAY too much randomness have appeared all of a sudden even though we have actually not touched the randomness itself at all.

So. Here we have three options as we see it - switch back and get some bug reports now and then and have quite inaccurate information from the Star Indicator System, or we could go with a middle ground here and make it that if you have between 45%-55% chance of winning no matter if you win or lose you will receive two stars OR we could leave it as it is.

Something worth to make clear here is also that if you are theoretically always is the best footballer when it comes to fights for the ball for example - you always have more than 50% chance of winning - then you will NEVER get 3 stars. Only 2 stars and 1 star and red star. Why? If you are considered as the favourite then it is considered as normal when you win. This does not mean that the randomness never is in you favour. You should see every two star win as if the luck was in your favour and you should see two star wins as something very positive. It says that you REALLY deserved to win. As soon as you get three stars to win then you must remember that you have been a bit lucky. It can be as little luck as 49% instead of 51% but the odds were at least not in your favour - luck was on your side.

Next section will be examples of how the stars work within different cases.

4.1. Passing(also shooting)
The stars in passing are very straight forward. The stars will show exactly in what interval the dice end up at. If it ends up on let say 4, then the star indicator will show Three Golden Stars. If it shows 56, then it will show 2 stars. 98? A red star. And somewhere between 2 stars and red star it will show a 1 Star and somewhere between 2 Stars and 3 Golden Stars the 3 Stars will show. So far so good.

On top of this the attributes are very important. The better attributes the more accurate the passes will be. Therefore a great passer getting a 1 star may get more accurate passes that a lousy passer who gets 3 stars. The attributes is really the main factor of how accurate the passes are - not the randomness. The worse attributes the more decisive the randomness will be though. A lousy passer needs luck to hit hard, accurate passes while great passers needs bad luck to not get the hard passes accurate.

4.2. Fights For the Ball (also for Dribbling/Tackling)

The stars in Fights For the Ball(FFB) are based upon the odds of winning/losing. When looking at the involved footballers attributes, momentum, positioning etc, then they are weighted towards each other and a specific chance of winning for every footballer will be calculated. Let’s give some examples:

Example 1 - two quite equal footballers


Example 2 - one superior footballer


Example 3 - three footballers


What do I try show with this? I try to show that the stars does NOT show the randomness (the dice) in these cases as in passes and shots. They only show the likelihood of the actual outcome.

4.3. Saves & Punches
With these cases we have the goalkeeper attributes, positioning etc that competes against the quality of the shot/pass. What is done is that all the footballer factors are added together and compared to the shot and the odds of a save/punch appears. If the keeper have more than 50% chance of saving/punching and succeeds then it will show 2 stars. If failing it will show 1 star.

To give some examples:
The outcome of the dice is 63 in all these examples.

Great shot


Ok shot


Bad shot


So. Same result of the randomness in all these cases but different outcome and different stars.


5. Why Do We Have Randomness - Is It Really Needed?
Short reply? Yes it is needed.

Why? Because it would not feel like football if it was removed. In a discussion in the forums we discussed this and two games were brought up. The user I discussed with, thought FID should be more like chess where the "users" decides the outcome totally and that they themself should create situations for the opponents that are hard to handle etc. Next to no randomness should be needed. Only attributes and user decisions. He did not want it be like Poker.

I personally think Poker is a lot more like football. Football is chaotic when on the field and lots of things can happen. Sure skills are essential but it is not everything. Even the most skilled footballer will not succeed every time. Poker is a card game where both luck and skills are important. Without being a poker expert in any way, I dare to say that a lot about being successful in poker is to calculate your odds of winning and to know when to go for the pot and when to fold. You may have great odds of winning and for you the correct choice is to go for the pot but still you can lose. I see a lot of this in football as well. In football a lot of the challenge is to set yourself and your teammates in as good situations as possible where you can use your best skills against the worst skilled opponent if possible. This does not mean you will win EVERY time though. You may lose balance in the wet grass. You may get the sun in your eyes when trying to jump for the ball. You may be held by the opponent without the ref noticing it, a strong wind may blow the pass out of trajectory, a bird may be hit by the ball, you may hit the ball 1mm too far to the side due to the ball bouncing a bit strange making the shot fly 3m to the side of the goal instead of in it and so on and so forth. All these possible events maybe could be added to a Match Engine. It would be very complex though and I doubt it would be realistic to feed users with this information and make a decision on top of that. And it would not be that fun either if asking me. Instead we use randomness to capture a bit about all these things for good and bad.

Do not get me wrong here though. We have a lot of things that we hope to be able to implement in the future where the user decisions may take over more of the randomness making the influence of randomness smaller. Randomness will always be needed though I must say - in my opinion.

Let say we skip randomness. How would anyone be able to stop the best free kick taker in the world? Goal every single time? How would anyone be interested in having anything but maxed on their main task attributes? Who would ever wanna be an allround player? How fun would it be to be a new 18 year old footballer and have NO chance at all to succeed in anything unless the opponents makes obvious mistakes? How to decide how a pass from badly skilled passer should end up? Should every pass be way off every time? Should the maxed tower strikers who get the ball passed right at his/her head always win the fight and score?

Randomness is needed for all these reasons as I see it and I strongly believe FID is more of a poker game than a game of chess - even if there are some similarities in both of course.

6. Randomness and Statistics
Without knowing you all and without being an expert my feeling is that randomness and statistics may not be crystal clear for everyone and I thought I would explain a bit about what I think about this...

Randomness is random. You can never know the outcome of it. Just think for yourself. Take a dice with 6 sides and throw it let say 6 times. Most likely you will not hit 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 in that order. Most likely you will not hit 1,1,1,1,1,1 either. BUT. It is possible. Hit 6 1s in a row have the odds of 1/6*1/6*1/6*1/6*1/6*1/6 = 1/46656 or around 0.002% of the time you try this. Here we starts to look at statistics.

In this example it is always 1/6 chance of getting a 1 when rolling a dice no matter if you have rolled 5 1s in a row before that or not. Always the same probability. So when you have rolled 5 1s in a row and are about to roll the dice then you have 1/6 chance of finalising the 6 1s in a row.

But before the first dice is rolled in the attempt to get 6 1s in a row then the probability tells you that it is not very likely you will succeed.

The thing with statistics is that it can show you patterns, but the patterns do not tell much unless you have a big sample. What this means is that in a game like Footballidentity, randomness may seem wrong in a match or two because you are unlucky in the actions you feel are important. But if you look at it over a season or two the randomness is probably quite "correct". That does not help you in the matches where you are unlucky of course though and that is really a part of FID and football. Things that are seen as bad luck is an essential part of football and FID.

To give an example of what I mean I take 600 random numbers (https://www.random.org/integers/) between 1 and 6 (like a dice). I take the numbers 100 by 100 to see how things can change from sample to sample. If the randomness is completely fair then every side of the dice should show 100 times if it is hit 600 times. Lets see how close we get!

Here you can see the numbers that I got in sample 1:
3 6 2 3 3 3 3 5 1 5 2 4 4 4 4 6 6 5 6 5 3 6 5 2 2 1 5 3 1 2 1 5 1 2 1 3 6 3 4 5 3 1 5 1 3 6 2 4 5 1 2 5 5 4 4 2 4 1 5 4 4 5 4 5 4 1 4 3 3 5 6 5 3 5 2 1 4 3 4 1 2 5 3 3 1 1 4 2 3 5 3 4 2 1 1 4 2 1 6 4

Number of 1s: 18
Number of 2s: 14
Number of 3s: 19
Number of 4s: 20
Number of 5s: 20
Number of 6s: 9

Next 100 I got in sample 2 was:
5 4 1 2 2 4 3 4 2 1 6 1 3 6 3 5 6 4 6 4 5 6 4 6 5 4 6 5 2 2 6 4 2 1 1 1 2 5 3 6 1 5 3 4 5 3 3 5 4 4 6 2 6 2 1 2 5 3 2 5 2 4 1 2 5 6 6 2 3 5 1 4 6 4 2 6 2 6 2 5 5 5 2 5 2 5 2 5 5 6 4 5 4 1 3 3 5 3 3 6

Number of 1s: 11
Number of 2s: 20
Number of 3s: 13
Number of 4s: 16
Number of 5s: 22
Number of 6s: 18

Next 100 I got in sample 3 was:
3 6 1 3 6 5 3 5 2 4 5 4 2 5 1 1 3 6 5 6 3 2 3 4 3 5 3 6 5 3 1 1 3 4 6 3 4 3 6 5 6 4 1 6 2 5 4 5 6 3 3 3 2 5 5 3 5 1 4 6 4 1 3 4 2 5 3 3 4 3 2 3 4 6 2 1 1 3 3 6 2 4 5 2 6 2 6 6 1 5 3 1 2 3 6 3 2 3 1 1

Number of 1s: 14
Number of 2s: 13
Number of 3s: 27
Number of 4s: 13
Number of 5s: 16
Number of 6s: 17

Next 100 I got in sample 4 was:
6 2 5 2 3 1 2 1 4 4 1 5 4 4 4 4 6 1 3 4 5 2 2 1 6 1 1 4 1 4 5 3 5 3 6 1 5 3 6 3 6 5 5 4 1 6 1 3 1 6 2 1 6 1 6 2 3 5 5 4 1 5 5 6 4 1 1 3 5 5 1 1 6 3 6 1 4 6 3 4 5 1 4 3 5 3 6 3 4 3 6 3 6 5 1 3 2 1 2 4

Number of 1s: 23
Number of 2s: 9
Number of 3s: 17
Number of 4s: 17
Number of 5s: 17
Number of 6s: 17

Next 100 I got in sample 5 was:
6 1 2 1 2 4 1 4 3 3 6 1 4 3 1 5 6 5 1 2 3 1 1 5 5 3 1 5 3 1 2 4 4 6 1 6 2 4 3 4 5 6 6 5 4 2 2 3 2 6 2 1 2 2 5 1 3 4 1 6 3 2 2 5 2 5 3 5 4 5 3 2 2 5 3 3 6 4 1 6 2 1 4 3 2 4 6 4 1 3 5 4 3 3 6 1 1 3 3 1

Number of 1s: 20
Number of 2s: 18
Number of 3s: 20
Number of 4s: 15
Number of 5s: 14
Number of 6s: 13

Next 100 I got in sample 6 was:
4 2 2 6 3 3 4 4 1 4 4 5 6 6 3 6 6 5 4 1 3 3 5 4 3 3 4 2 6 2 2 1 5 5 3 4 4 6 3 4 4 5 4 4 2 6 3 5 1 5 6 3 1 4 1 6 1 6 5 6 6 6 5 6 2 2 5 3 5 3 1 5 1 4 1 3 1 4 3 6 5 3 4 1 6 1 6 2 3 2 1 6 4 5 2 4 1 5 1 4

Number of 1s: 16
Number of 2s: 11
Number of 3s: 17
Number of 4s: 21
Number of 5s: 16
Number of 6s: 19


So in total it would look like this:
3 6 2 3 3 3 3 5 1 5 2 4 4 4 4 6 6 5 6 5 3 6 5 2 2 1 5 3 1 2 1 5 1 2 1 3 6 3 4 5 3 1 5 1 3 6 2 4 5 1 2 5 5 4 4 2 4 1 5 4 4 5 4 5 4 1 4 3 3 5 6 5 3 5 2 1 4 3 4 1 2 5 3 3 1 1 4 2 3 5 3 4 2 1 1 4 2 1 6 4 5 4 1 2 2 4 3 4 2 1 6 1 3 6 3 5 6 4 6 4 5 6 4 6 5 4 6 5 2 2 6 4 2 1 1 1 2 5 3 6 1 5 3 4 5 3 3 5 4 4 6 2 6 2 1 2 5 3 2 5 2 4 1 2 5 6 6 2 3 5 1 4 6 4 2 6 2 6 2 5 5 5 2 5 2 5 2 5 5 6 4 5 4 1 3 3 5 3 3 6 3 6 1 3 6 5 3 5 2 4 5 4 2 5 1 1 3 6 5 6 3 2 3 4 3 5 3 6 5 3 1 1 3 4 6 3 4 3 6 5 6 4 1 6 2 5 4 5 6 3 3 3 2 5 5 3 5 1 4 6 4 1 3 4 2 5 3 3 4 3 2 3 4 6 2 1 1 3 3 6 2 4 5 2 6 2 6 6 1 5 3 1 2 3 6 3 2 3 1 16 2 5 2 3 1 2 1 4 4 1 5 4 4 4 4 6 1 3 4 5 2 2 1 6 1 1 4 1 4 5 3 5 3 6 1 5 3 6 3 6 5 5 4 1 6 1 3 1 6 2 1 6 1 6 2 3 5 5 4 1 5 5 6 4 1 1 3 5 5 1 1 6 3 6 1 4 6 3 4 5 1 4 3 5 3 6 3 4 3 6 3 6 5 1 3 2 1 2 4 6 1 2 1 2 4 1 4 3 3 6 1 4 3 1 5 6 5 1 2 3 1 1 5 5 3 1 5 3 1 2 4 4 6 1 6 2 4 3 4 5 6 6 5 4 2 2 3 2 6 2 1 2 2 5 1 3 4 1 6 3 2 2 5 2 5 3 5 4 5 3 2 2 5 3 3 6 4 1 6 2 1 4 3 2 4 6 4 1 3 5 4 3 3 6 1 1 3 3 1 4 2 2 6 3 3 4 4 1 4 4 5 6 6 3 6 6 5 4 1 3 3 5 4 3 3 4 2 6 2 2 1 5 5 3 4 4 6 3 4 4 5 4 4 2 6 3 5 1 5 6 3 1 4 1 6 1 6 5 6 6 6 5 6 2 2 5 3 5 3 1 5 1 4 1 3 1 4 3 6 5 3 4 1 6 1 6 2 3 2 1 6 4 5 2 4 1 5 1 4

Number of 1s: 102 - 17%
Number of 2s: 85 - 14.2%
Number of 3s: 113 - 18.8%
Number of 4s: 102 - 17%
Number of 5s: 105 - 17.5%
Number of 6s: 93 - 15.5%

Average should be 16.7%. Interesting to see here is that 1-3 and 4-6 should be 50% (like a coin flip) and that it actually have turned out to exactly those numbers.So as you can see from any of the samples above certain number seem to dominate the individual samples with high or low percentages but when we look at all samples together the percentages are much more accurate, just like it would be when looking at a season or two in FID instead of a game or two.

7. Transfer the random numbers into FID
If you want to test your way of thinking and if you understand it correctly when it comes to the star system and the randomness then you can follow my thoughts here where I will use the random numbers in my experiment above.

Let say we transfer all sides of the dice above to randomness in FID.We could let every side stand a certain star.

1 = 3 Golden Stars
2 = 3 Stars
3 = 2 Stars
4 = 2 Stars
5 = 1 Star
6 = 1 Red Star

This is of course only accurate when it comes to passing and shooting accuracy basicly but it can be used in the other cases as well if we ignore the stars and see them as randomness only then.

Then it can be described in the following way:
Winner odds - Winner Stars - Loser Odds - Loser Stars
1 - 3 Golden stars - 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 - Red Star
1, 2 - 3 Stars - 3, 4, 5, 6 - 1 Star
1, 2, 3 - 2 Stars - 4, 5, 6 - 2 Stars
1, 2, 3, 4 - 2 Stars - 5, 6 - 2 Stars
1, 2, 3, 4, 5 - 2 Stars - 6 - 2 Stars

Please note that this is a simplified view where I assume that the winner odds always starts from 1 which is of course not the fact.


7.1 Fictional Example of How the Random Numbers Could be Used
Lets have a fictional example from a kick off and use the first sample from above which holds the following numbers where the number that is used will be shown as [X] where X is the random number. Here are the first 100 random numbers:
3 6 2 3 3 3 3 5 1 5 2 4 4 4 4 6 6 5 6 5 3 6 5 2 2 1 5 3 1 2 1 5 1 2 1 3 6 3 4 5 3 1 5 1 3 6 2 4 5 1 2 5 5 4 4 2 4 1 5 4 4 5 4 5 4 1 4 3 3 5 6 5 3 5 2 1 4 3 4 1 2 5 3 3 1 1 4 2 3 5 3 4 2 1 1 4 2 1 6 4:

Fictional Example
Turn #1:


Turn #2:


Turn #3:


Turn #4:


Turn #5


Turn #6


Turn #7


Turn #8:


Turn #9:


Turn #8


Turn #9


Here is an example of how randomness could work in a game. You can see that even if the central defender got a 5 on the dice he still won the fight. You can see that even if the shooter got a 6 in quality the lack of pressure, the short distance and his attributes still gave him 2 bars. You can see that kick off gave the passer 1 bar only with a 6. The randomness does not care about if you need the luck there or not. What you can do is to improve your odds as much as possible to improve your odds of getting the luck on your side. If you are good enough the luck will be on your side overall. Believe me. So. Instead of blaming on bad luck when getting 1 stars, try to see what you can do to improve your odds! If your odds are good enough then you will get less 1 stars failures, more two star successes and maybe get 1 red star the few times you actually fail.

8. The Two Star League Suggestion
A suggestion has been voiced about creating a 2 star league. The league would only hand out 2 stars in all actions and should always let the better footballer win/succeed unless if the two footballers were really close to each other in odds. Then it should be decided by a “flip of a coin”.

The reason behind this suggestion is to get rid of the randomness as much as possible and make the better footballers win in all situations.

I personally have several reasons why I do not think this is a good idea:

*Everything in Footballidentity is tweaked with randomness in mind. If a footballer have the odds of winning at 75% of the times, then it is because we think that is a good balance - the footballer should not win every single time. The passes are tweaked with the randomness in mind. Great passers are rarely affected by the randomness while bad passers are heavily affected by the randomness. Let all passes be two stars and the passes will be too accurate overall. Same with shots really.

*Randomness is essential to simulate all the things that are parts of real life football but that is hard to put a finger on. It can be the sun that blinds the gigantic central defender and makes him miss the ball, it can be a footballer holding his opponent down without the referee noticing it, it can be an uneven part of grass on the pitch that makes the ball bounce a bit strange making the keeper miss the easy shot and so on and so forth. No one is successful EVERY time - not even under perfect circumstainces.

*How to solve the shots and the passes? Should the best strikers always score and the worst finishers always miss the goal? Should the best passer in the world ALWAYS hit spot on while the worst passers always hit the passes way off? What about those who are between max and min - how to decide how successful a footballer like that would be? Is randomness still needed here perhaps after all?

*Who would ever want to have an allround footballer? Would it ever be any point to have anything but max on the attributes you want to be successful with? How to deal with a footballer who is allround? With 2 stars only then a footballer like that will most likely run around and fail most actions.

*Someone mentioned it would work perfectly with footballers who are at about the same attribute levels. What you probably fail to see then is that most of the actions will then fall within the “flip of a coin” area and still be decided by randomness - except that the 55-45 cases may be changed to 50-50 cases instead. More randomness that is which should benifit the slightly worse footballers since it will give him/her better odds.

Well… The list can go on really but the thing is that I really do believe that the main reason behind this suggestion is that the star indicator system and how it works with randomness has been unclear for you in the community. Just a thing such as that if you get lots of 2 stars wins and 1 star losses when it comes to fights for the ball does not mean that you have been unlucky. It simply means that you are better in all these cases and does not need luck to win - you need bad luck to lose. This bad luck can be as low as 51-49 which may be the case when two maxed players are up against each other or it may be maybe 60-40. Fact is that you have been better but maybe not superior in any way hence many 1 stars may show.

Also - if you have good enough passing skills for example then those one stars does not mean much since even the one star passes will be accurate enough. The better skills and the better decisions you make, the less you need to rely on being lucky and the better odds you have to be successful.

In the end we may need some small tweaks here and there and maybe we need to make a small change to the star indicator system to make it a bit less precise in order to give more two stars for psychological reasons, but I feel REALLY strongly that randomness is essential for FID to capture the feeling of the, sometimes very chaotic, sport called Football.

Finally I want to add that I will most likely edit this post to correct errors or unclear sections. You can come with any questions or any feedback (as long as you stay on topic and behave in a civilized way) to this text in the thread you can find here.
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#6 Posted : Friday, October 09, 2015 9:07:11 PM



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Bad Luck or Bad User Decisions?

That is the question. This post will clear up thoughts around the “randomness” and “it is all about luck” discussion.

Before starting this post I want to write some words with some of my thoughts around this for you all to process. The randomness and the balance within the Match Engine have been the same for many, many seasons. Why do you think the discussions around randomness, all about luck, dices etc were starting just after we made a change in the Star Indicator System that would show less two stars? And why is the game SO random all of a sudden after that change was made when the outcome of the different actions have not changed at all? My opinion is that the balance between randomness and attributes and user decisions is working well. Really. The psychological aspects of the star indicator system is clearly very big though and it is clear that we will have to change that back - or at least change it closer to how it was. This will “fix the randomness” in FID. At least the main issues with the randomness that creates the illusion that it is more random than it is. This does not mean that we will not make any changes at all in the randomness. More about this towards the end of this post.

With this said I will now try to explain the strengths with the current system with attributes, randomness and user decisions.

As it is now two equally skilled footballers can have as big difference as basically having 1% to 99% chance of success depending on user decisions only. What we have as user decisions at the current time is positioning, momentum, distance of shot/pass, distance between keeper and shooter, and pressure from opponents. All of these are not used in all cases but in for example tackling/dribbling momentum is used. With momentum we refer to the speed the footballer will have when performing the action and it takes time to both increase momentum (accelerate) and decrease momentum (brake). So if you run a full length run and put minimum momentum then you will not have low momentum next turn as you did not have time to brake. Same thing with acceleration - it takes time to reach full momentum. If you run full length runs then you run as fast as you can to get there and you basically have to accelerate and increase the momentum to get there.

As we see it high momentum makes it harder to tackle and low momentum makes it easier. So say we have a scale between 0 momentum and 100 momentum where 100 is the highest momentum achievable then it is REALLY hard to pull a tackle off at that pace. Lowest possible momentum therefore gives a big bonus to the chance of tackling while the highest possible momentum gives a big decrease to the chance of tackling.

All this is nothing new. What seems to be a bit less thought of is that there are lots of times where momentum is somewhere in the middle of this scale.

When there are tight leagues with many footballers who are good and with active users who seldom are completely fooled that easily then the chances of success are normally somewhere in the mid ranges most of the time. This means that the dribbler may have 60% chance a lot of the times for example. Statistically that would mean that the dribbler should have 6 successful 2 star dribbles and 4 failed 1 star dribbles out of 10 dribbles as it is now. But that is statistically. It is easy to fool yourself to think that you make perfect dribbles and that it was purely bad luck when failing with a 1 star but this is not correct. Having a 1 star failed dribble/tackle does not mean you have made a perfect tackle/dribble but failed - it means that you could have done better if you had outsmarted your opponent completely.

There are footballers who dribble a lot at highest levels who have around 90%+ in successful dribbles. That user probably knows how to get good odds in dribbling and probably needs a red star dribble (3 golden stars tackle by the opponent) to fail when making most of the dribbles. Most likely those are not the ones the user is failing though. Most likely the ones the user is failing are the ones where the user cannot make the perfect dribbles and is in need of some luck and maybe fail with a 1 star dribble (three star tackle by the opponent).

With user decisions here I also include things such as special abilities I may add.

With this said I therefore want to point out that if you fail with a 1 star dribble/tackle with maxed attributes then you have had ok odds but your user decision have not been perfect in any way except that you maybe made the most perfect decision in the current situation depending on the opponents have made a good effort to stop you and were not outsmarted completely. A red star failed dribble/tackle is really bad luck though. Then we can talk about bad luck despite a great user decision. We seldom see red star failures though when it comes to dribbling/tackling that is certain.

So. With the current system the user decisions are vital. There are two sides though - your side and the opponents side. Both sides try to improve their odds as much as possible and both sides can improve their chances of success to different degrees. As it is now you can have a pretty much guaranteed success if making perfect decisions enough to completely fool the opponents. But if you are not fooling your opponents completely then you most likely have a more or less big risk to fail. What is a big risk or not can be discussed. Some people may think that failing 20% of the attempts is too big. Some may think winning 60% is good enough. Some may settle with ok odds and continue to fail dribbles/tackles with 1 stars while other users maybe try to get better odds than that before making an attempt to perform the tackle/dribble. That is up to the user. Failing with a one star only means that you did not do well enough to deserve any better odds though and you therefore had a considerably big risk of failure.

If you get pretty much as many 1 star failures as you get 2 star successes then you probably have room for improvement as it probably means your chance of success is only around 50-60%.

To support what I say I can take an example. You all have probably seen a Means Business (MB) tackler up against a Star Quality (SQ) dribbler where the dribbler think he/she is good enough to just run through the tackler. The tackler maybe have made N/A (No Action) and stands completely still. A turn later the tackler have the ball with a 2 star tackle. Imagine if that tackler would have had SQ tackling. How big chance do you think he/she would have had then if the MB tackler had over 50% chance in the same situation?

As it is now we have quite bad dribblers dribbling maxed tacklers. We have quite bad tacklers tackling maxed dribblers. This is because of the influence of momentum - the user decisions.

I strongly believe that it is better to have randomness who creates some excitement in all actions and also makes it possible to have all possible odds between 1%-99%. I do not think FID would become a better game if we removed the randomness and decided that as soon as someone have for example better odds than 55% that footballer should always be successful. If that would occur then we would see lots of actions where user just not even try to tackle or fight for the ball. User would soon learn that if for example a footballer run more than one turn in a direction then you always fail against a maxed tackler and then it is no point of tackling. Users would learn that if the pass hit the maxed tower on his/her head then there is no point to go into the fight. It may not be any point even if you yourself are a maxed tower as you have to move there and also get a worse position than the opponent. We would get a very predictable game with no surprises. Shouts like:
“I just reach him and I will test a tackle but will need some luck!” will be replaced by:
“I have run for a turn now so he is lost for me now. Lets run to the box instead - he will have to pass and if we have enough players in the box then his pass may hit one of us instead of their tower.”

We will lose all grey areas of where it could be successful or it may not be successful and it will be replaced by black and white cases - always success and always failures. That is not for the better as I see it. It will not be football like at all.

Something that will fix what many of you feel around all this is something as simple as change the Star Indicator System back to as it was. Before the latest tweak there we only had complaints about some possibly bug cases where users had around 59% chance of success and thought it was strange that he/she lost with 2 stars which is understandable. It is now clear that the change we made was too big though and created an impression that Footballidentity is more random than it is. We may change it back to somewhere between how it is now and how it used to be. Read more about this in the previous post that you can find above in the last post or on this link:
http://forum.footballide...p;m=2800885#post2800885

With this said I can reveal that we plan to start a thread soon where we will discuss if we should increase the normalisation in some cases. I will add the link to the thread in this post as soon as it has been posted. I may also add that I may be editing this post if I find any unclear sections or things that I would like to make clearer. You can also continue to discuss randomness on the already existing discussion thread that can be found here:
http://forum.footballide...p;m=2800886#post2800886

The link to the Normalisation Thread will be posted below this sentence as soon as it has been posted.
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